Deviate

“Las Vegas is hard to capture in art without leaning on cliche. The movie Casino doesn't lean on cliche because it created the cliche. The Hangover created the cliche for this next generation. Culture is is causing people to act a certain way when they get to Las Vegas.” – Tod Goldberg In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tod talk about how movies can "totalize" places like Las Vegas, depicting "The Strip" at the expense of other parts of the city (3:00); the way that the real Las Vegas is full of deeply weird places and people, while still being an amalgamation of American culture in general (8:00); bygone hotels and attractions and the "lack institutional memory" in Las Vegas, as well as what social classes of people are attracted to the city (16:00); the kinds of movies that have been made about Las Vegas, the cliches they entail, and what they imply about how (and where) the city should be experienced (25:00); what Las Vegas is like outside of (and in tandem with) the narrative cliches that have come to…

“That first day in Mumbai, there was the slum to the side of us, there were sports cars that would have cost hundreds of thousands of dollars next to people walking with no feet next to 200 people crammed into a bus. Separating those layers in a nuanced way lifts the writing that shows that you've gone there and been respectful of the people who live here.” – Luke Richardson In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Luke talk about Rolf's earliest travel adventures, why going slowly and spontaneously is the best way to travel, and what it's like to travel during times of natural disaster (2:00); how to write travel stories that are both interesting to the home audience and respectful of local communities, and how some of the best travel narratives are quest narratives (9:00); the tension between truth and possibility in storytelling, Rolf's "stranger than fiction" moments on the road, and narratives that inspired Rolf's early travels (17:30); Luke's adventure novels, and the travels that informed them (28:30);…

"All writing is trying to destroy a stereotype, and the individual that you're writing about -- the figure in the landscape -- is actually the ideal." —Paul Theroux Paul Theroux's highly acclaimed novels include Blinding Light, My Other Life, and The Mosquito Coast. His 1975 book The Great Railway Bazaar is credited with revitalizing the genre of literary travel writing, and his more recent travel books include Ghost Train to the Eastern Star, Dark Star Safari, and The Last Train to Zona Verde. In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Paul talk about Theroux's book Figures in a Landscape, and strategies for writing about the "human architecture of a place" (5:30); the attitude and time-investment required for meaningful travel reportage (20:30); the qualities that determine successful travel writing (25:50); the essential discomforts and obstacles of travel (32:45); the uses and shortcomings of paper maps in developing countries (40:15); and where Paul is traveling next (46:00). Media mentioned in the 2026 intro…

“"When I was in the third grade my teacher announced to our class that Ronald Reagan had been shot. When she asked if we had questions, I raised my hand and asked her if the Indiana - North Carolina basketball game was still going to happen that night.” – Chuck Klosterman In this episode of Deviate, Rolf, Chuck, and Michael hypothesize about where in Texas the town of "Dillon" is in the TV show Friday Night Lights (2:30); the role of sports and sports movies in how people perceive Indiana, and which sports fandoms are independent of geography (17:00); sports movies (and hypothetical sports movies) set in Michael's hometown of State College, PA, or Chuck's home-state of North Dakota, or Rolf's hometown of Wichita (27:00); working-class sports cities with bad reputations, and how geography determines the sports stories that are told there (40:00); the inherent placelessness of the NFL Scouting Combine and the Super Bowl, how sports are the last media events where the outcome is truly unknown, and what the best…

“A joke is kind of like a little life-lesson in addition to being funny. If your joke is really good, there's a little nugget of truth in it.” – Cedar Van Tassel In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Cedar discuss why kids want to be paleontologists and astronauts, and the existential "book" Cedar wrote when he was four (2:00); how Cedar got started reading comics, which ones were his favorites, and his own early comics projects (8:00); the golden age of webcomics, and how Appleguy got started (16:00); the world of Appleguy and Beefwood, and its "roadside attraction" and other geographical subplots (24:00); how Cedar went from drawing an Instagram comic to having a book of comics published by a major North American indie comics publisher, and what his creative process looks like (37:30); and Cedar's four pieces of creative advice: 1) Be opportunistic; 2) Give yourself some rules; 3) Don't torture yourself; 4) People will find your interest in something interesting. Cedar Van Tassel (@appleguy_comix) is the…

“When we don't foster local filmmaking traditions, we end up making movies about what we think life is like in the cities we do see movies about.” – Jason Bailey In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Jason talk about how being from Kansas influenced their careers as travel writers and film critics, and the long cultural shadow of The Wizard of Oz (2:30); how Jason's career started by making independent movies in Wichita, what those movies were like, and how he remembers them now (9:00); how many New York movies were shot in Los Angeles in the early part of the 20th century (19:00); how filmmaking moved back to New York during a less-than-glamorous time in the city's history, and how it's important to tell one more story about a place (26:00); and how technology might change the way movies are made and watched in the future (32:00). Jason Bailey (@jasondashbailey) is an author and film critic, whose writing has appeared in such publications as the New York Times and Rolling Stone. He is the author of six…

“I asked everyone if they were lonely. All the guys my age said 'no, I'm too busy; too much going on.' When I answer that quickly I'm either lying or it's something I'm afraid of.” – Andrew McCarthy In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Andrew talk about why Andrew took a USA road trip to reconnect with his friends (2:15); what kinds of friends Andrew sought out, why none of them were public figures, and how loneliness is bad for men's health (8:00); the kinds of men Andrew spoke with in passing on the trip, why Andrew sought out Elvis Presley sites on the road, and how women's friendships differ from men's (17:30); Andrew's takeaways from his road trip, why "showing up" for people is important, and how travel can be the "university of life" (28:00); audience questions about friendships between younger men, the rumored possibility of a St. Elmo's Fire sequel, the task of recording an audiobook, creepy things that happened on the road, and how travel inevitably makes us more open and curious (35:30). Andrew…

"I think you have to pick your battles when you're collaborating with people." – Kim Krizan Kim Krizan (@kimkrizan) is the Oscar-nominated cowriter of the Before Sunrise movies, and the author of Spy in the House of Anaïs Nin. Notable Links: Kim Krizan on the philosophy of Before Sunrise (YouTube video) Screenwriting in Paris class, with Kim Krizan (creative writing class) Paris Writing Workshops (summer learning-vacation classes) Before Sunrise (1995 movie) Ethan Hawke (American actor and director) Julie Delpy (French actress and director) Richard Linklater (American filmmaker) Slacker (1990 film) Dazed and Confused (1993 film) Anaïs Nin (French-American diarist and novelist) Reality Bites (1994 movie) Robin Wright (American actress) Lili Taylor (American actress) The Prater (public park in Vienna) Waking Life (2001 film) Forrest Mallard editing and marketing services Kansas Never Plays Itself (video essay by Rolf Potts)

“I wish I loved sports, and particularly football, a lot less than I do. It consumes too much of my memory and too much of my time.” – Chuck Klosterman In this episode of Deviate, Rolf talks about why he's talking to Chuck Klosterman's former roommate Michael Weinreb about Chuck's book Football, rather than Chuck himself (2:00); football-themed video games, and the difference between emotional and analytical sports fandom (7:00); Pico Iyer's appearance in the movie Marty Supreme, how podcasting has changed the landscape, and how streaming video has become the standard way to watch even high school football (17:00); why going to football games in person is a "pagan" experience of games that is completely different than watching them on TV, and how there's a travel parallel in experiencing distant places in person (24:00); how important the season and the weather is to the experience of football at both the experiential and metaphorical level (32:00); what might become of football, and why it persists as the…

“In teaching us to appreciate rather than accumulate – to seek awe rather than outcomes – travel can be an ongoing exercise in gratitude.” – Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf remixes his interview from the All the Hacks podcast, with Chris Hutchins. They discuss the concept of “Time Wealth,” how it can be actualized through travel, and how it can dovetail with your family and life goals (2:00); what kinds of travel-oriented experiences and attitudes and rituals can help you frame and identify your values and life-goals (10:30); how kids can be a window into new places as a traveler, and why slowing down and "seeing less" helps you experience more on the road (27:00); the limitations of planning your travels around a "Bucket List," and the merits of taking a travel attitude to your home environment (35:30); how to pack when traveling light, and how to use technology wisely on the road (45:30). Chris Hutchins (Instagram: @chrishutchins) is an avid optimizer and host of a top-ranked podcast, where he…

In this feature-length video essay that explores the role places play in storytelling, Rolf examines how Kansas -- his home state -- has been imagined, distorted, and mythologized in cinema and television for more than a century. Blending archival film clips, historical analysis, and deeply personal narration, Kansas Never Plays Itself traces how cinematic shorthand shapes our collective imagination. The video essay invites viewers to reconsider what it means for a location to “play itself” — and what’s lost when the real landscapes and communities behind our most beloved stories remain unseen. Sneak preview of the video essay is online here. Chapters: 0:00 - Intro: Not in Kansas Any More Movies and TV shows mentioned: The Wizard of Oz (1939); Showdown at Abilene (1956); Gunsmoke (1955-1975); Dances with Wolves (1990); Kansas (1995); Capote (2005); The English (2022). 2:00 - Part 1: No Place Like Home (or, Hollywood can’t tell the truth about places) Movies and TV shows mentioned: Suits (2011); Law & Order:…

“I’m interested in writing because I don’t want to sleepwalk through life. I feel like we have an appallingly brief time on earth, and we’re here to see and understand and do as much good as we can before we’re gone.” –Anthony Doerr In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Anthony talk about how the pace of travel changes the experience of travel, and what it’s like to travel as a writer (2:45); how to manage the local and the global, the specific and the universal, the concrete and the speculative, in one’s writing (12:30); how the idea of “home” influences one’s craft as a writer who travels (23:00); common mistakes writers make when writing about places and cultures they don’t know well, and humiliating travel (and book-tour) experiences (31:00). Anthony Doerr is a novelist and essayist, and short story writer. His 2014 novel All the Light We Cannot See won the Pulitzer Prize for Fiction, and was made into a Netflix miniseries in 2023. Books and authors mentioned: Four Seasons in Rome, by Anthony Doerr (book)…

Note: This encore episode is dedicated to the memory of Alice Potts, who died on August 20, 2025, aged 81. “In America aging is often seen as an insult rather than an inevitable human process. We don’t celebrate getting older; we ‘fight’ age by pretending to be young.” –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate Rolf and his parents, Alice and George Potts, talk about how surviving the COVID-19 pandemic has changed their relationship, and how it gave them a pretext to go through a “death checklist” together (3:00); how one’s grandparents and parents live on in one’s memories and one’s conversations, the life-values they passed on, and what it felt like when those loved ones declined and died (14:00); how, over the years, elderly people and philosophers have come to terms with notions of decline and death (31:00); and personal insights about what it’s like to have grown older after having lived a long life (44:00). George and Alice Potts are retired schoolteachers based in Kansas. George taught science at various…

“Billionaires can’t take a week off? What’s the point of having a billion dollars if they have fewer options than I do?” –Tim Ferriss In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tim discuss common travel fantasies, and the fears that keep people from traveling (5:00); how we can redefine what “wealth” is and live fuller lives (18:00); why keeping a healthy perspective on information intake, technology, and “efficiency” is important, both on the road and in daily life (25:00); the “beginner’s mind,” and tips for writing and creativity (54:00); the merits of going on foot and “getting lost” on the road, and how this figured into Rolf’s writing classes (1:17:00); notions of “success,” and how to definite the notion of success in a way that enhances one’s way of being in the world (1:37:00); and Rolf’s recommendations for drinks, food, documentaries, books, and poetry (1:50:00); Tim Ferriss (@tferriss) is a best-selling author and podcaster. General Links: Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s summer writing classes)…

“Sometimes it’s good to sit still and let a place move through you instead of you moving through a place.” –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss how one can be vulnerable to new experiences on the road instead of micromanaging an itinerary (2:00); how monuments to mortality help us think of travel moments in an existential way (11:30); how we can take the mindset of travel back home with us when the journey is over, and how the experience of travel changes as you age (20:00); the role of ritual and ceremony in slow travel, and the simple things we have in common with our host cultures (30:00). Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England. Notable Links: Rolf’s online book club signup The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) The Cotswolds (region in central-southwest England) Lake Maninjau (caldera lake in West Sumatra, Indonesia) Rendille people (Cushitic-speaking ethnic group in northern Kenya) Locals often…

“When asked to give advice to young people looking to become travel writers, I invariably tell them to go – alone – and live in a country where they don’t speak the language.” –Thomas Swick In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tom talk about the thematic limitations of memoir writing, and the early stages of Tom’s career as a journalist (2:00); his decision to move to Poland for love, and his experiences living in Warsaw around the time of the Solidarity movement (9:30); the task of writing a travel memoir about events that happened decades ago, and how the American news cycles tends to ignore international matters (15:00); the task of getting started in travel writing in the twenty-first century (21:00); and how travel writers have the ability to bring a fresh eye to places that people who live there might miss (26:00). Thomas Swick (@roostertie) is an author and writer of The Joys of Travel, A Way to See the World, and Unquiet Days. His newest book is Falling into Place: A Story of Love, Poland, and the…

“One way of making famous landmarks more comprehensible is to look for surprises, good and bad, that go beyond what you are expected to encounter there, details that open you up to the raw imperfections of the encounter itself.” –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate – which is a redo of episode 229, which didn’t air properly due to technical problems – Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss how to break out of standard tourist routines and see places in unexpected way (1:30); how to get beyond the transactional, “taxi drivers and bartenders” layer of travel (10:00); how to become more independent of technology and smartphones as a traveler and find the “wisdom of place” (16:00); and the travel photos Rolf wishes he had taken when vagabonding 20 years ago (23:00). Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England. Notable Links: Rolf’s online book club signup The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Kalash people (tribe in Pakistan) Up Cambodia without a…

“Not everyone who’s lucky is talented and not everyone who’s talented is lucky.” –Tom Bissell In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tom talk about Tom’s lack of travel experience when he joined the Peace Corps, and how he dealt with his early failures (2:30); the role that luck (as well as craft and obsessive reading) has played in his writing career (8:00); how, as a writer, to turn real-life people, including yourself, into convincingly human and honest nonfiction “characters” (16:00); Tom “failures” as a writer, the challenges of screenwriting, and the difficulty of writing books that sell (38:30); the book that Tom is most proud of, and how to get out of the success/failure dichotomy as a creative person (47:00); plus a post-interview segment about drinking in Paris (56:00). Tom Bissell is an American author, journalist, critic, and screenwriter. He is the author of such books as Chasing the Sea, Apostle, God Lives in St. Petersburg, Extra Lives, and The Disaster Artist. Notable Links: Rolf’s Paris travel…

“One way of making famous landmarks more comprehensible is to look for surprises, good and bad, that go beyond what you are expected to encounter there, details that open you up to the raw imperfections of the encounter itself.” –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss how to break out of standard tourist routines and see places in unexpected way (1:30); how to get beyond the transactional, “taxi drivers and bartenders” layer of travel (10:00); how to become more independent of technology and smartphones as a traveler and find the “wisdom of place” (16:00); and the travel photos Rolf wishes he had taken when vagabonding 20 years ago (23:00). Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England. Notable Links: Rolf’s online book club signup The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Kalash people (tribe in Pakistan) Up Cambodia without a phrasebook, by Rolf Potts (essay) Henry Rollins Travel Slideshow (spoken-word tour)…

“One ironic anxiety of travel is that suddenly you’re living in ‘organic time’ and you’re not used to it.” –Rolf Potts In this “vagabonding audio companion” episode of Deviate, remixed from Aaron Millar’s Armchair Explorer podcast, Rolf talks about his earliest travel dreams, and what compelled him to finally take a vagabonding dream trip around North America by van in his early twenties (2:00); how travel expectations and planning are often at odds with the joy of what happens spontaneously on the road (8:30); the delightful surprises Rolf found on a recent trip to Sumatra and the Mentawai Islands (11:30); Rolf’s experiences in Myanmar, and the importance of seeing time, rather than possessions, as our most important form of wealth in life (22:00); Rolf’s early experiences in Southeast Asia, and his monthlong boat journey down the Mekong River (31:00); and how, at its best, travel teaches us to pay attention to life itself (35:00). The Armchair Explorer podcast features adventure storytelling set to music…

“A wonderful aspect of traveling by train is the transactional relationship between passengers who feed off one another, picking up tips, offering advice, guarding each other’s belongings, and generating a trust that is unique to railway travel.” –Monisha Rajesh In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Monisha discuss how her interest in train-travel dates back to a series of journeys she took around India (1:30); her more recent experience of taking the Trans-Mongolian train across Russia and into Asia (14:00); what it was like to travel by train in North Korea, China, and Southeast Asia, and how they differ from European trains (28:00); what it was like to take trains across Canada and the United States, and which global trains Monisha likes best (45:00). Monisha Rajesh (@monisha_rajesh) is a travel journalist, and the author of Around India in 80 Trains, and Around the World in 80 Trains. She currently lives in London with her husband and two daughters. Notable Links: Indrail Pass (Indian rail-pass for…

“We live in an age where you can take a series short flights inside a country to speed things up. You end up going to more places, but you experience less, because you’re not really committed to that chicken bus full of really interesting people who want nothing more than to interact with you.” –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss the idiosyncrasies of crossing land borders and traveling overland (1:30); travelers’ tendency to take dishonest photos of places, and how tourist destinations bend to tourists’ expectations (8:00); the small inconveniences that keep travel interesting, even as we try to avoid them, and the idiosyncrasies of haggling overseas (14:00); how food can be a window into cultures and places for travelers (19:00); common scams that travelers encounter on the road (26:00); and the process of how Rolf assembled the meditations in The Vagabond’s Way, and the concept of “walking until your day becomes interesting” (30:00).…

“Domestic travel to rural places can be as important as international travel that is more obviously cross-cultural.” –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Marci talk about how the best trips are guided by curiosity about eight key things, rather than checklists (2:00); what Marci has learned from several decades of writing guidebooks to rural and small-town Kansas, and how these places are worth fighting for (10:30); how urban people can better experience rural places (17:00); using your five senses as a traveler, and other strategies for exploring the nuances of new places (26:30); and seeing places as “mysteries to be solved” (37:30). Marci Penner (@GetRuralKansas) is the executive director of the Kansas Sampler Foundation, which preserves and sustains rural culture by educating Kansans about Kansas and networking and supporting rural communities. She is involved with the PowerUp Movement (empowerment of those 21-39 who are rural by choice), the Big Rural Brainstorm, and the We Kan! Conference.…

“A souvenir can be anything from a travel experience that honors a certain moment in your life, certifies the journey that took you there, and celebrates the confluence of people and places and actions that made it possible.” – Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Suzanne talk about the ways souvenirs help narrate our travel experiences (2:00); the five different historical categories of travel souvenirs (7:30); the old trend of collecting hair and bones from famous people (15:00); what kinds of souvenirs are popular with travelers (20:00); which souvenirs Rolf sought when he visited Australia, and how some souvenirs make less sense when you get them home (24:30); then Rolf and Gina talk about childhood travel souvenirs (30:00); how photographs are a kind of souvenir, and how they create different memories than objects (36:00); and how the notion of “authenticity” in regard to souvenirs can be complicated (40:00). Suzanne Hill is the presenter of the Australian Broadcasting Corporation’s “Weekend…

“In alien parts, we speak more simply, unencumbered by the histories that we carry around at home, and look more excitedly, with eyes of wonder.” —Pico Iyer In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss how he prepares for the book-club sessions (1:30); how the first days of one’s journeys have an optimistic energy and excitement, and how “culture shock” is a real thing (4:00); how travel can put us into a childlike mental state, and how travel expectations can lead to unfair disappointments (13:00); how food, even anomalous food, tells specific stories about places, and Rolf’s strategy for keeping a travel journal (21:30); how the “beaten path” is beaten for good reasons, but straying from it yields serendipitous rewards (31:00); and simple strategies for staying safe and dealing with burnout on the road (42:00). Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England. Notable Links: Rolf’s online book club signup The Vagabond’s Way, by…

“We do not just keep and collect things. We trouble ourselves to repurpose, create, and invent things just to carry, a little easier, those stories we cannot live without.” —Kendra Greene In this episode of Deviate, Rolf speaks to the directors of two very different museums — Dawn Hammat of the Eisenhower Presidential Library, Museum & Boyhood Home in Abilene, Kansas, and Greg Long of Long’s Collectible Showplace & Gift Shop in Salina, Kansas (0:00); what people are drawn to in a given museum, and how a kind of nostalgia drives what people look for there (5:30); the ways all museums change and adapt over time, and how museums can surprise their visitors (12:00). Notable Links: Dwight Eisenhower (34th president of the United States) Mamie Eisenhower (first lady of the US from 1953-61) Barbie (fashion doll) Hot Wheels (brand of toy car) The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Ozzy Osbourne (rock singer) Wonder cabinets (early versions of museums) British Museum (national museum in London) Beanie babies (line…

“Quietly use travel to deepen your life, and to build stronger relationships – not only with other cultures, but with your home. Figure out ways to give back.” –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and David talk about how travel allows you to “waste your twenties” in a good way, and how Rolf has come to define “adventure” (2:00); how to plan travels in such a way as to leave room for spontaneity, and how to meet people on the road (8:00); how to communicate in a place where you don’t speak the local language, and how to be daring in trying new foods as you travel (15:30); Rolf’s travel experiences on the Laotian Mekong, on foot in the Libyan Desert, and by van in North America (25:00); how to balance the desire to see lots of places with the desire to get to know a few places well, and what it means to find “authentic” places (32:30); why slow journeys create richer experiences than hurried ones, and how to honor gestures of hospitality (42:30); how the experience of travel changes as you get older,…

“Not every fearful decision I’ve made has been bad, but most of my bad decisions have been based in fear.” –Andrew McCarthy In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Andrew talk about the two halves of Andrew’s professional life – acting and travel writing – and his transformative first journey on the Camino de Santiago in 1994 (2:00); Andrew’s decision to return to the Camino after the pandemic with his 19-year-old son Sam, what it was like to walk for days at a time with Sam, and how being in the 1980s “Brat Pack” affected Andrew’s sense of self (11:30); how Sam’s attitude toward the walk changed over the course of the journey, and how Andrew knew he might be able to write a book about the experience (22:00); audience questions, including writing advice, what Sam thought of the book, and how travel can expand your view of the world (28:00). Andrew McCarthy (@AndrewTMcCarthy), who rose to fame as a teen actor during the John Hughes 80’s era, is a television director and writer of such books as The Long Way Home…

“The truth is that our travel anticipations, and our memories, have a way of holding only the most striking parts of an experience—the parts that don’t cause burnout.” —Matt Kepnes In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Matt talk about travel journaling, and a journal Matt has designed for travelers (1:15); why travel burnout happens, and how Matt first experienced it on the road (4:30); why rest days are important to a journey, and why one shouldn’t over-plan one’s days on the road (10:00); how lingering in places allows you to develop a deeper relationship to those places, and how digital nomads can balance work and fun on the road (16:00); and how to create balance in your social-media habits as you travel (23:30). Matt Kepnes (@nomadicmatt), commonly known as “Nomadic Matt,” is a travel blogger and the New York Times bestselling author of Travel the World on $50 a Day and Ten Years a Nomad. Notable Links: The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Keeping a travel journal (Deviate episode)…

“Things don’t happen in Las Vegas. Things are happened in Las Vegas. All actions in the town are so meticulously predicted and orchestrated that spontaneity itself exists only as the ghost of compulsion.” –Rolf Potts (in 1998) In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Ari discuss Rolf’s 1998 Las Vegas essay “The Mystical High Church of Luck,” and their relationship to their early creative work (2:30); how the experience of Las Vegas depends on what stage of life you’re in, how Vegas compares to New Orleans, and how Rolf and Ari have a hard time enjoying themselves when they go there (14:00); the stereotypes that surround Las Vegas, why it is difficult to write about, and how one might find original experiences there (30:00); what it would be like to live in Las Vegas, and the mysteries and mechanics of “luck” (47:00). Ari Shaffir (@AriShaffir) is a comedian, writer, podcaster, and actor. He is the host of the Skeptic Tank podcast. His latest comedy special, JEW, is available on YouTube. Las Vegas Links: The…

“Nothing against bucket lists, but sometimes that interest that makes you weird and nerdy at home is going to make you vulnerable to all the weird nerdy people in some distant new place who are also interested in that thing.” —Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss what compels us to be interested in certain places, and how Rolf’s latest book is designed to be read over the course of a year (2:00); how nomads can create consistency and community in new places, and how to find good cities for families in Italy and the Balkans (4:45); how to find places to stay in places where last-minute reservations are hard to come by (8:30); how to choose where to go on a given vagabonding journey (13:00); how having a mission can give focus to your travels (17:45); and how guidebooks can still be a useful travel tool (21:10). Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England. Notable Links: The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book)…

“You hear how there’s many words for snow in native cultures in Canada; there are actually over 20 words for ‘fog’ in the Faroe Islands.” –Matthew Landrum In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Matthew discuss what makes the landscape and culture of the Faroe Islands distinctive, and how Matthew came to study Faroese (2:00); how your motivation to travel to a place affects what you see and experience there, and how isolation affects people’s worldview in a place like the Faroes (13:00); Faroese history, art, and culture, and how World War II transformed it (24:00); how the weather affects one’s experience of the Faroe Islands, and what it’s like to travel there (34:00); and how the Faroe Islands have changed — and stayed the same — over the years (46:00). Matthew Landrum (@MatthewLandrum) is a writer, speaker, and teacher. He is the translator of Faroese poet Katrin Ottarsdottir’s Are There Copper Pipes in Heaven, and the author of Berlin Poems. He lives in Detroit where he teaches at a private school for…

“”I wasn’t partying. I wasn’t relaxing on the beach. I was photographing – working – every minute of the day. That was a means to see as much as I possibly could. And to keep looking.” –Kevin Kelly In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Kevin discuss the ambitions and connections that led Kevin to Asia not long after high school (2:30); how Kevin’s interest in photography affected his experience of Asia (7:30); how seeing other cultures gave him perspective on his own culture, and on himself, and his countrymen (15:00); how photography gave him intensified attention to what in the world might be changing (23:00); how AI and other technology are changing how we live, create, and travel (30:00); how to travel in such a way that you are open to phenomenon and experiences you don’t know of yet, and how technology might enable a “protopia” future (40:00). Kevin Kelly (@kevin2kelly) is a co-founder of Wired magazine, a co-founder of the Rosetta Project, and he serves on the board of the Long Now Foundation. He is a…

“Success is often about finding just enough material wealth to fund the life that makes you happy.” —Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Nomadic Network book club participants discuss how travel can intensify the attention you pay to life at home (2:30); how the best discoveries of travel can’t be planned, and how you can give yourself permission to travel at all ages in life (10:30); how travel can give you perspective on the notion of “success” (22:00); what various book club participants have learned from (and discovered on) their travels (34:00); and the details of Rolf’s annual Travel Memoir writing class in Paris (41:00). Notable Links: The Nomadic Network book club (online events with Rolf) Marco Polo Didn’t Go There book club (Deviate episode) The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Rolf’s 2022 appearance on the Tim Ferriss Show (podcast) On Kawara (Japanese conceptual artist) Mallory Square (waterfront plaza in Key West) Oia (village on the Greek island of Santorini) Tony Perrottet…

“Travel has become a way to remind myself how it feels to get lost, and then get unlost. It is a way to remember the discomfort of uncertainty and the unfamiliar. It’s an exercise in receiving the unexpected.” –Kristin Van Tassel In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Kristin discuss being in DC, living in Kansas, and Kristin’s family trip to Mexico using migrant-economy buses (1:30); how seeking international restaurants and grocery stores at home can be a window into distant cultures (8:00); Kristin’s motivation to learn Spanish in middle age, and how it connects to her perspective as a teacher (16:00); Kristin’s harrowing experience of getting lost on a run in Nairobi in 1990, and how getting lost in a place is a way of experiencing it in a deeper way (20:30); how Kristin experienced the country and culture of Moldova through soups and salads while being hosted there by a former student (34:30); and how to stay open to being lost without compromising yourself, and embrace unfamiliar languages as a traveler…

“Running back John Levi is about as easy to stop as a 200-pound eel. With his speed, and his shifting, sidestepping style of running, tacklers slide off of him like rain off a slicker.” –From the Minneapolis Star, October 1923 In this episode of Deviate, Rolf talks about a 1927 football game between the New York Giants and an all-indigenous Oklahoma team called the Hominy Indians, and how the team’s star player, John Levi, was the father of Rolf’s junior high gym coach (0:00); John Levi’s early years as a football player at Haskell Institute, and Haskell’s games against teams like Baylor and Minnesota (5:00); Haskell’s game against the Quantico Marines at Yankee Stadium, and how it led to John Levi being offered a baseball contract (10:30); how professional football was different in the 1920s than it is now (14:00); how Osage County, Oklahoma was in the midst of an oil boom in the 1920s (17:30) the specifics of the 1927 New York Giants versus Hominy Indians game (20:30); and how John Levi’s legacy was…

“For ancient Roman tourists, the whole point of travel was to go where everyone else was going. Sightseeing was a form of pilgrimage.” –Tony Perrottet In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tony discuss the habits idiosyncrasies of ancient Roman tourists, and how they relate to modern travel (1:30); the class tensions and expectations inherent in different types of modern and historical travelers, and how the “unexpected” affects these journeys (17:00); the appeal of Egypt to both ancient and modern tourists (22:30); how mythic ages can be a prism through which to see a place (33:00); how travel and geographical endeavor is an important task for a historian (44:30); and how the experience of travel has and hasn’t changed over the years (55:30). Tony Perrottet (@TonyPerrottet) is the author of six books, including Pagan Holiday: On the Trail of Ancient Roman Tourists; The Sinner’s Grand Tour: A Journey Through the Historical Underbelly of Europe; and The Naked Olympics: The True Story of the Greek Games.…

“A willingness to fail is an important part of difficult beauty. Because difficult beauty will arrive first not as beauty at all.” –Chloe Cooper Jones In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Chloe discuss the philosophical concept of “easy beauty” and “difficult beauty” in the context of travel (2:30); how our relationship to places changes over time with repeated exposure (15:00); how art and travel, home and adventure, became important aspects of Chloe’s life (23:00); how the archetype of the “Hero’s Journey” evokes aspects of home as well as travel (35:30); Chloe’s investigation and experience of “dark tourism” in Cambodia, and how it gave her perspective on how other people view her disability (45:15) and how there’s no easy way to navigate the polarities of the self, but trying to do so can result in a hard-won experience of beauty (1:08:00). Chloe Cooper Jones (@CCooperJones) is the author of Easy Beauty: A Memoir. She has been a Pulitzer Prize finalist in Feature Writing, and was the recipient of a…

“Travel is one of the few activities we engage in not knowing the outcome and reveling in that uncertainty. Nothing is more forgettable than the trip that goes exactly as planned.” –Eric Weiner In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Eric discuss the tendency of travelers to idealize the very recent bygone past in places, and Rolf’s experience of traveling by freighter ship (2:00); Eric’s satisfaction in returning to places he’s visited before, such as India, and how to remain open to uncertainty and surprise on the road (9:30); how conversations about travel differ from generation to generation, culture to culture, person to person (20:00); what it was like for Eric to have his book The Geography of Bliss adapted into a TV show, and the nuances behind the concept of “happiness” (28:30); how the experience of travel is inevitably intertwined with the experience of home (38:00); how luxury hotels can insulate you from the experience of a place, and how “adventure travel” is modern concept (43:30); and how Eric’s…

“Travel expands time, because you’re not experiencing the everyday of what you normally do. It’s all about discovery, and experiencing that with other people.” —Pegi Vail In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Pegi talk about how she originally sought to depict a “visual ethnography” of world travelers, their global impacts, and their power as a “gentrifying” force (2:00); how the world of travel has (and hasn’t) changed since Pegi made her film ten years ago, and how immigrants and migrant workers also represent travel communities just like backpackers and expats (11:00); the ways the notion of “journey” can serve as a metaphor for non-travel experiences, and how travel can expand one’s sense of time (26:30); what stories travelers choose to tell about places, and how drug-scenes have fueled travel communitas over the years (31:00); the role digital photography now plays in travel, and the individualized notion of what an “explorer” is (39:30); and the importance of allowing yourself to get lost on that road,…

“Why fly fourteen hours from New York to Johannesburg to see a South African version of Brooklyn? To me, the only reason to know what destinations are ‘hot’ is to avoid them.” —Seth Kugel In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Seth talk about how the travel industry both helps and hinders the travel experience, and how Seth first experienced travel when he was young (1:30); tourist desire, the “beaten path,” and the contradictions of what travelers seek in AirBnbs and related property-renting services (10:30); dealing with language barriers overseas, and social versus literal risks overseas (20:00); balancing general tourist advice versus nuanced insights as a travel writer, and the role new technologies play in travel decisions (27:00); and why it’s a good idea to avoid places that have been deemed “trendy,” and how to break out of the bad habits of travel (40:30). Seth Kugel (@sethkugel) is a travel writer, freelance journalist, and host of the Amigo Gringo YouTube channel. He was the Frugal Traveler…

“There’s no getting lost when you travel, because you’re already there. You’re already where you’re supposed to be, which is somewhere in this new place.” –Ari Shaffir In this episode of Deviate, which took place at New York City’s KGB Bar, Rolf and Ari talk about the premise of Rolf’s new book The Vagabond’s Way (2:20); why it’s important not to postpone one’s dream travels to a seemingly more appropriate time of life, and how it’s hard for your friends to appreciate and understand your travels when you get home (7:30); how to not let your smartphones and photographs get in the way of your best journey (15:00); how to best decide where to start on a journey, and why allowing yourself to get lost is sometimes the best way to find experiences a place (23:00); why the philosophical concept of “time wealth” is important to Rolf, and how travel allows you to express a unique feeling freedom (31:30); how the The Vagabond’s Way is the “spiritual successor” to Vagabonding, and how Rolf keeps travel in conversation…

“Travel is often one part geography and nine parts imagination.” –Kate Harris In this episode of Deviate Rolf and Kate discuss how travel can transform one’s idea of what “exploration” is (3:00); the concept of borders (14:00); nostalgia and the transformational effect of travel (25:00); the role of home in relation to travel (34:00); and letting adventure into your life (44:00). Kate Harris (@kateonmars) is an adventure writer, named by Condé Nast Traveler as one of the “world’s most adventurous women.” Her work has appeared in Outside, The Walrus, and Georgia Review. Her book, Lands of Lost Borders, is a national bestseller For more about Kate, check out www.kateharris.ca Notable Links: Rolf’s Q&A with Kate Harris (book foreword) Silk Road (network of trade routes) Ernest Shackleton (explorer) Fridtjof Nansen (explorer) Annie Dillard (American author) Wind, Sand and Stars, by Antoine de Saint-Exupery (book) Henry David Thoreau (writer) My Journey to Lhasa, by Alexandra David-Neel (book) Aksai Chin (region…

“I didn’t know where we were going, and I didn’t know how long we were going to be gone. I brought no food, not even a bottle of water. When that boat left the dock, I felt so free. I threw off all these anxieties about control.” –Carl Hoffman In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Carl talk about the premise of The Lunatic Express, which took Carl around the world on a series of local buses, trains, planes, and ferries (2:30); how to overcome the common fears of traveling in this manner, and how tourism infrastructure isn’t required for travel in places (9:30); how making yourself vulnerable to new places leaves you open to the people who live there (22:30); the role that simple conversation, smells, and open-ended activity plays in the lives of isolated communities (30:00); and Carl’s advice for leaving yourself open to spontaneous travel experiences (40:00). Carl Hoffman (@lunaticcarl) is the author of four books, including The Lunatic Express, and Savage Harvest: A Tale of Cannibals, Colonialism, and…

“Eat what is put in front of you. They are not making fun of you. The rooster’s head floating in the soup really is given to the honored guest. If you insist on being a picky eater, stay home.” –Tim Cahill In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tim talk about the premise of Tim’s classic essay “Professor Cahill’s Travel 101” (1:30); the importance of having a “quest” on a journey (8:00); how boredom can enhance the experience of travel, and why rest-days are important to a journey (15:00); why one should avoid whining (and compulsively talking about bowel movements) on group journeys (21:00); why packing too much gear — and obsessively trying to save money on the road — can be counterproductive to engaged travel (25:00); why it’s important to be daring with trying new food on the road (40:00); and why bad travel experiences make for better stories than pleasant ones (45:00). Tim Cahill is a journalist, author, and pioneering travel writer. For more from Tim, check out his Rolling Stone and Outside archives, or…

“When you’re not sitting across from someone, you’re sitting across from the whole world.” –Stephanie Rosenbloom In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Stephanie talk about the rewards of traveling alone, and how to mix solo and companion travel within a single trip (2:00); how going alone makes you more receptive to museums, restaurants, and walking in a new play (11:00); how to better savor your travel experiences while they’re happening (21:00); certifying versus savoring experiences, and how to balance travel as an external act with a more spiritual internal process (31:00); and strategies for savoring solo travel experiences (46:00). Stephanie Rosenbloom (@stephronyt) is a travel writer for The New York Times, where she has been a reporter for more than a decade, and the author of the book, Alone Time: Four Seasons, Four Cities, and the Pleasures of Solitude. For more about Stephanie, check out http://www.stephanierosenbloom.com. Notable Links: The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (travel book) On Karawa…

“A travel journal helps you remember more than what you did and saw. It will helps you remember how you became the person you are today.” –Lavinia Spalding In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Lavinia talk about the section of Rolf’s book The Vagabond’s Way that touches on travel journaling, what what purposes a travel journal can serve (1:30); how journals give you perspective on the person you used to be, and how the journaling habit develops over time (9:00); strategies for being vulnerable and honest in a travel journal (15:00); strategies for being consistent with a journal on the road (19:00); employing non-visual senses and evoking less-than-ideal experiences to capture more subtle textures in a travel journal (25:30); how a journal gives you a pretext to approach and even interview people who interest you on the road (33:00); how to take notes in the field, how to maintain an ongoing relationship with old travel journals, and why travel journals serve to make a journey more meaningful (41:00).…

“When you travel, you find out what it is you really want. You find out what you’re capable of, what your ambitions are.” –Paul Theroux In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Paul talk about how brotherly conflict is a time-honored trope in literature, and how travel can be a way to find your interests and ambitions in life (3:00); the ethical paradoxes and hypocrisies of global charities and industries in a resource-rich place like Africa (9:30); how writing fiction differs from writing nonfiction (19:00); and where Theroux is headed next (22:00). Paul Theroux (@PaulTheroux_) is a pioneer of travel writing and author of many highly acclaimed books, including The Great Railway Bazaar, The Tao of Travel, and On the Plain of Snakes. His newest novel is The Bad Angel Brothers. Notable Links: The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (travel book) Paul Theroux on the art of listening (Deviate episode) Paul Theroux on the inherent complexity of Mexico (Deviate episode) The Great Railway Bazaar, by Paul Theroux (travel…

“This is your one life. Think about it: If you dream of travel, it’s not as hard as you might think. You can find ways to make it happen.” –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Ernest talk about how “vagabonding” is defined, how Rolf has come to define home, and what the premise of The Vagabond’s Way is (2:00); how Rolf researched and organized the quotes and anecdotes and philosophies that went into the book (10:00); how mistakes and misadventures are an inevitable part of the travel process, and how time is one’s truest form of wealth (14:30); how the quiet experience of travel counts for more in life than travel that is performed for status (20:00); how no amount of planning can prepare you for the discoveries of each new day on the road, and how curiosity is more important than expertise on the road (27:30); how over-dependence on technology can compromise the novel experience of travel (33:30); advice for people leaving their country for the first time, advice for people traveling inside the…

“I didn’t go to Africa to “feel African,” or become African. What I wanted to do was put myself in the shoes of the person I was traveling next to.” –Eddy L. Harris In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Eddy discuss why Eddy’s Africa travel book Native Stranger was not always well-received by America’s cultural gatekeepers in 1992 (3:30); what is was like for Eddy to travel as a Black American in Africa in the 1990s, and how his experiences there became a book (12:30); how Africa has changed, and is changing (24:00); observations of Native Stranger that Rolf quoted in The Vagabond’s Way, such as how to deal with beggars on the road (30:00); and Eddy’s experiences being a Black American in France, and his core motivation for travel (37:00). Eddy Harris (@EddyLHarris) is a writer, filmmaker, and author of several books, including Mississippi Solo, Native Stranger, and Still Life in Harlem. Notable Links: Luxembourg Garden (park in Paris) South of Haunted Dreams, by Eddy L. Harris (travel book) Malcolm X…